Pyromaniacs has a great quote today from D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
I feel it is an interesting and profitable subject to try to decide which is the more dangerous position for a man to be in —to state openly and avowedly that he is not at all interested in Christ and religion, or to follow Christ for the wrong and false reason. I know that, ultimately, there is no difference between these two men. The one who follows Christ for the wrong reason is as much outside the kingdom as the man who makes no pretence to follow Christ at all. That is perfectly true. But I do think there is an important distinction between the two when you regard things merely from the human standpoint. The difficulty with the man who follows Christ for a wrong reason is that he not only deludes himself, but he also deludes the church. When you are confronted by one who says he does not believe in Christ, then you know exactly what to say and what to do with him. When a man presents himself as a religious person, the church tends to take him for granted; it would be an insult to question him. The church assumes that because he acknowledges himself to be a religious man, therefore he is a Christian. One of the most dangerous places for such a man to be in is the church of the living God.
I am not at all sure but that one explanation for the present state of the church is to be found at just that point: she has been far too ready to associate church membership with true discipleship, and to assume that all who join the church are really following Christ.
I’d say there’s some application to Christian colleges and seminaries, but that’d get me in trouble.
Thanks for saying it (re: Christian colleges and seminaries).
You do have a way of saying things you’re not saying and not saying things you’re saying. That’s a frightening quote, especially for those of us who think that Lloyd-Jones is talking about anyone but us.
I see his point, but I don’t think there’s much we can do about it. In fact I think it would be quite devastating to do anything about it. I’m thinking here in particular of the parable of the wheat and the weeds. The question is asked, shouldn’t we pull out the weeds? The answer is given, no, let them grow up side by side until the harvest, lest you pull out the wheat along with the weeds. The point seems to be that a) the weeds are going to be there b) it’s harmful to try and root them out oursleves c) God will root them out at the last judgment.
This is not to say we shouldn’t be bold in proclaiming he truth, and standing for the truth. I think it’s more to the point that God will deal with it.
And to Gunner’s point, we should all be so duly wary ourselves.
Gunner – if you mean that a believer cannot have confidence that he is truly in the faith, I disagree. I agree that believers must “continue to work out their salvation with fear and trembling,” but personally I do not wrestle with whether I am truly saved. Should I be frightened? Or did I miss your point?
Stratkey – that is a good parable, but I think that context is important here. Jesus told the disciples that parable when they were looking out at a multitude that seemed to believe in Jesus. But Jesus knew that many of them wanted miracles and free lunches, but they did not accept Jesus for all that he was. So this parable was Jesus’ way of telling them not to be misled into thinking that all of the excitement was genuine and lasting.
Now, as far as applying it to today, I would say that we still have (in some places anyway) mixed multitudes. And it’s not our job to be the winnowers of the masses. But there are other exhortations in Scripture which I think would encourage us to do this: as we know individuals who claim to be in the faith but appear to be otherwise, we should gently and lovingly show them Scriptures which might help them to see the difference between true faith and false faith.
Todd – Thanks for clarifying. I do believe that Christians can and should have full assurance of their right standing before God as we examine ourselves in light of Scripture. But if someone doesn’t care to honestly or accurately examine himself in light of Scripture and therefore never considers it possible that he could be one of the people Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 and Lloyd-Jones is talking about in the above quote, he should be concerned.
My point was just that when we read quotes like the one you posted, we should look at ourselves first. This doesn’t necessarily have to lead us to fear for our souls. It might actually lead to greater assurance. But I would be scared if I realized that I habitually thought of everyone else whenever I read things about self-deceived professing Christians. My point wasn’t that you were doing this by posting the quote.
I also think it’s entirely appropriate and wise to remind people of what Lloyd-Jones said and not only apply it to ourselves. I just think we ourselves need to heed the warning, too.
Heeding the warning is different than lacking assurance, in my view.
This is an important issue to me, so thanks for the dialogue.
Don’t forget the second half of Phil. 2:12-13! “…with fear and trembling you (pl) be working out/performing the salvation on your own; FOR [Reason] God is the One being at work/operative in you (pl), both the willing and the working, for the sake of the delight/pleasure (of God).” That’s the sad part of the unregenerate member in a local assembly who is attempting to live the Christian life without the Holy Spirit – it’s impossible!
Todd, that’s a good topic for discussion. Where does reproof/correction of a believer start and tolerance of the weed end? And who carries out the “delivering to Satan .. . ”
My guess is the answer lies with the church (as opposed to the individual), and I would argue for a broader understanding of the wheat and the weeds parable. I think we all get way too carried away with trying to determine who’s in and who’s out. But leaders have to do this to some degree, so how do we adjudicate?
Stratkey – yes, these are more complicated issues than blog comments can address, but a few thoughts.
I think that what Jesus described in Matthew 18 is intended to help the church to separate the believer from the unbeliever. That is, if the individual persists in sin despite repeated attempts by the church to restore him, then he is to be treated as an unbeliever.
As far as “we all get way too carried away with trying to determine who’s in and who’s out,” my impression is the opposite. That is, churches in America generally do not take the Lord’s commands seriously in this regard. Many churches are filled with those who make no claim to be believers, and there are many pastors who are obviously unregenerate. That’s the wider perspective, and it may be different if you limit it to the evangelical churches. But I’d still suggest that most pastors prefer to be liked rather than to speak (hard) truth. Of course, it doesn’t matter what the situation really is; what matters is that each of us in our individual situations follow the commands of Scripture. And sometimes that means putting an unrepentant individual out of the church.